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Cenacle - In hidden crypts and dark vaults, cenacles of secret religion meet to keep their flame alive.

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Is the Western Civilization dying?

November 11th 2006 07:05

Brad Pitt plays Achilles in Troy

I caught a flash of Troy yesterday when it played on a TV channel. Brad Pitt looked cute and the battle scenes were well-mounted. I couldn't see the whole movie though.

But that brief flash of a movie brought back the memory of a small incident that happened a couple of months back. I wrote something based on Greek mythology and showed it to a friend of mine. He is reasonably well-educated and fairly intelligent but he didn't know anything about Trojan War or Greek mythology. The first time he had heard about them was in the movie Troy!

It turned out I knew a whole lot more about it. I had the whole story of Trojan War as a text for a whole year in school. That alone should make me remember it. My countrymen too should know a bit about Helen of Troy and all that stuff. Of course, I went on to read a lot of literature and philosophy and got to know more about Greeks but my point is, even those who hadn't pursued my interests but came from my background would still know about it. And here was a child of Western Civilization, utterly clueless about his own cultural heritage!

And yesterday when I caught the movie, I marveled at how this Hollywod rehash of an age-old story is the only tenuous link between an age-old civilization and its modern inheritors.
There is a fear floating around in the intellectual circles that Western Civilization is dying. There was this young white man who had no idea whatsover of his own culture, his inheritance.

I also marveled at the irony of it all. In the nineteenth century, at the height of European colonialism, it was white people who would strut over four corners of the world and wake up demons from the past. Whether it was Africa , China or India, it was these people who would reawakened the sense of their cultural heritage. And now a century and a half later, it was I, who had recieved a education which was very much influenced by that colonial experiment, had known something about Western civilization whereas it's own child didn't know anything about it. Isn't it a curious reversal?

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Posted By: nagster - Category: Comment

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Comments

19 Comments. [ Add A Comment ]

Comment by spain01

November 11th 2006 07:44

Juan Carlos
spain again
While your'e about it
Viva l'difference
Fire News Blog
Cities dying of thirst.

Although surrounded by the cultural consequences of Troy and the Iliad including words in the English language, odyssey, siren, Cyclops and great places such as Paris, anatomical structures, Achilles tendon and great works of art, Ulysses, many younger people remain immune to the cultural influences of Homer and Troy. It comes from an aversion to History. This is often seen on websites where the votes are lowest for History postings. Talk of history and the eyes glaze over. Tell people that it is impossible to understand the English language unless you can use a dictionary, originally The Dictionary of Historical Terms, understand current affairs because without History they have no context or even science because History obviates the need for experiment in many instances and they refuse to believe you.

Agamemnon King of Men

Troy has more to offer than people realize. The Aeneid, the people who fled from Troy were said to have founded Rome. The movie is not ideal but has a lot to offer. It shows Achilles, the psychopath who risks all delighting in death but it also reminded me of the importance of Agamemnon, literally King of men. I had long contented myself that the Greeks founded three great empires, that of the Athenians and Syracuse, Alexander, and lastly that of Byzantium but I realized suddenly that there was really four, the first being that of Agamemnon. At the beginning the King of Thessaly takes Agamemnon to task for wanting to conquer everything, as indeed he nearly did in the ancient early Bronze Age. Really how many countries in History can claim to have founded not one empire but four in different periods? No. It is now so much the loss of civilization that is troubling; it is the loss of so many civilizations.

Comment by postmoderncritic

November 11th 2006 09:03

Postmodern Critic
Relativity Watch
Padsoc

Ignorance of history is certainly commonplace, but I prefer not to focus on the people who don't feel the need to get educated - let them be the victims of their own apathy. Then again, just because your friend doesn't know much about Troy might not be a reason for to dismiss his grasp of history. I read the Iliad when I was younger, but there are a lot of Roman and Greek mythologies I'm not familiar with.

> The movie is not ideal but has a lot to offer.

I refuse to take any movie that includes Orlando Bloom seriously, lol.

Comment by spain01

November 12th 2006 01:14

Juan Carlos
spain again
While your'e about it
Viva l'difference
Fire News Blog
Cities dying of thirst.

Come now don't you even credit him for his part as Legless the drunken elf in Lord of the Rinks.

Comment by nagster

November 12th 2006 01:31

Cenacle

Thanks Spain01,
For your detailed reply. Many people say that empires come and empires go and all that but still when you see a civilization in decline, you still feel for it.

Comment by nagster

November 12th 2006 01:35

Cenacle

Thanks postmodern critic,
Even I do not know many roman n Greek terms but I found interesting was that my friend had not even heard of Trojan war. It's not his apathy, I think. More like, lets call it education shall we, if the atmosphere around people is so devoid of any cultural references, how can you expect people to knwo anything?

As for Orlando Bloom, I agree. I hated him in elizabathtown. In fact, I'd shoot him down if I saw him.

Comment by Damo

November 12th 2006 02:36

Having stood on the ruins of ancient empires I have to admit one thing.
Empires come and Empires go.
The questions is how they will be remembered after they pass? Do we always regret the passing of every Empire and are there some we are glad to rid of?

The popular belief is that the Roman empire was corrupted from the inside before it was destroyed from the outside. I won't pass judgement of Western Civilization.

Comment by nagster

November 12th 2006 04:00

Cenacle

Thanks, Damo
So are you glad to be rid of Western Civilization? I actually quoted what you said when I said empires come and go but aren't you conflating empires with civilizations?

Comment by Damo

November 12th 2006 06:05

nagster
Point taken they are different.
Would I be glad to rid of Western Civilization? The answer is a resounding no. That would be very tragic and costly in human lives.

However when you stand upon the ruins of a city you realize that civilization hangs by a thread.

Comment by nagster

November 12th 2006 10:27

Cenacle

However when you stand upon the ruins of a city you realize that civilization hangs by a thread.

Looks like a perfect description of Western Civilization.

Comment by Damo

November 12th 2006 23:24

nagster
Hey look at that we can agree on something.

Comment by Adrian

November 14th 2006 00:59

Philosophy Blog

Hey Nagster, I'm a bit of an intellectual snob, and my first degree was in Latin and Greek, so my kneejerk reaction is to be utterly horrified at your friend's disgusting ignorance.

But, on reflection, I'd be against prescribing norms to people, at least in this context. That is, while I think it important to be exposed to other cultures, for all sorts of reasons, there's nothing about which I'd say, "This is something that it's absolutely essential to know."

After all, it's hard to demonstrate the practical usefulness of knowing about Troy. Sure, everyone in the dead white males canon knew Homer, and the story of Troy sort of echoes down the halls of cultural consciousness... But what is the direct connection to everyday life and happiness?

Comment by nagster

November 14th 2006 01:20

Cenacle

Hi adrian,
Well You asked a big question. I think in short doesn't it provide and anchor? How can you roam rootless in unchartered waters of consciousness and still be happy? And doesn't it lead it to happiness simply to know and take part in the achievement( beauty, pity n terror as NY Time put it) of a glorious age?

Comment by nagster

November 14th 2006 01:21

Cenacle

Damo,

I am glad we can.

Comment by postmoderncritic

November 14th 2006 08:11

Postmodern Critic
Relativity Watch
Padsoc

I have to agree with Adrian, there's no one text that should be studied by everyone. Everyone creates their own culture, and you're drawn to people on account of shared interests - I recommend you enjoy your friend's knowledge in other areas, while being mindful of the things he doesn't appreciate.

Comment by Justin

November 22nd 2006 15:44

Hey Cenacle,

I dislike to advertise so shamelessly but I wrote a piece quite similar to this and argue against the same thing happening with films. Here.
Thanks for another great read!

Comment by nagster

November 26th 2006 05:48

Cenacle

Thanx Cinematrix,
will check out your piece.

Thanx postmoderncritic,
It's not about familiarity about one text its about familiarity with the most basic knowledge of a culture.

Comment by JohnDoe

December 20th 2006 12:14

Film & TV on DVD

The real tragedy is that if you dont learn from the past you are destined to repeat mistakes.

Western civilizations lives 5 minutes ago, yes we are destined to fall....

As for film accuracy I am in the "like-it-to-at-least-try" camp when it comes to historical accuracy.

I am also often surprised at the filmmakers choices in what they decide is important to a moment in time and what isn't.

Truth is that history has already been embelished enough. The winners of wars write the history books and all that jazz, who knows what the real truth is. Its all perspective.

Comment by Anonymous

January 29th 2007 17:38

Great observation. We are heading for an apocalypse: no one knows anything. We are heading back to an animalistic bliss.

Comment by Anonymous

January 29th 2007 17:43

Inherent in the definition of culture is a common language, common stories, common rituals. People can't just make their own culture: culture is made through common knowledge of things like the story of Troy. And to Adrian, it's not a question of happiness. There is only a masturbatory pleasure if there is no common knowledge, if everyone pursues their own intellecutual endevours for themselves.

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